It seems unlikely that Ostroff decided out of thye blue one day to target young women and that CBS/Warner Bros. simply said 'whatever you decide Madam President'.

It seems equally unlikely that Ostroff decided one day to run the network on a shoestring budget and 'limit the losses' rather than spend the way toward success.

Odd how people blame Ostroff for decisions that are almost certainly made (and are certainly approved) by entities high up the food chain that she is in the 'empire'.

As for Shark, I find it hard to believe that it is particularly cheap given the talent envolved. Meanwhile, since 8 of the 10 million Shark viewers have likely never watched a single episode of anything on CW, it seems unlikely that they would make the move to the new network.

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:
It seems unlikely that Ostroff decided out of thye blue one day to target young women and that CBS/Warner Bros. simply said 'whatever you decide Madam President'.

It seems equally unlikely that Ostroff decided one day to run the network on a shoestring budget and 'limit the losses' rather than spend the way toward success.

Odd how people blame Ostroff for decisions that are almost certainly made (and are certainly approved) by entities high up the food chain that she is in the 'empire'.

As for Shark, I find it hard to believe that it is particularly cheap given the talent envolved. Meanwhile, since 8 of the 10 million Shark viewers have likely never watched a single episode of anything on CW, it seems unlikely that they would make the move to the new network.

That's what makes me wonder if CBS WANTS the CW to fail.

This what I was TALKING ABOUT...

The CW should be LED by WB Folks not CBS Folks, too much concentration on CBS Network.

WB had heavy promotion, that's why I heard most of their shows and some I did watch (like Smallville).

UPN, not a single show I heard except SMACKDOWN! because WWE, its parent company has heavy promotion and it is ONE of the LARGEST Sports-Entertainment FRANCHISES on Earth.

OSTROFF is the PROBLEM not The CW Network. OSTROFF is the PROBLEM not the shows.
OSTROFF is the PROBLEM because she didn't launch even a single hit series.

WB Folks are the ANSWER to The CW Network's ratings problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Josh_Kane:
This what I was TALKING ABOUT...

The CW should be LED by WB Folks not CBS Folks, too much concentration on CBS Network.

WB had heavy promotion, that's why I heard most of their shows and some I did watch (like Smallville).

UPN, not a single show I heard except SMACKDOWN! because WWE, its parent company has heavy promotion and it is ONE of the LARGEST Sports-Entertainment FRANCHISES on Earth.

OSTROFF is the PROBLEM not The CW Network. OSTROFF is the PROBLEM not the shows.
OSTROFF is the PROBLEM because she didn't launch even a single hit series.

WB Folks are the ANSWER to The CW Network's ratings problem.

yes, ostroff appears to be the VISIBLE problem. She might be getting big bux for being up front & taking the heat for someone else's decisions which she makes public. As Obveeus said, she didn't just make the mess & step into it overnight.

Two of her less-astute decisions were to dump "Everwood" & "Reba", not to mention the recent debacle with "Smackdown". If anyone else made any of those decisions & used her as the messenger, they've concealed that fact quite well so far.

More & more, I'm starting to believe that CBS wants the CW to fail so they can claim a big tax write-off.

quote:

Originally posted by robycop3:
Two of her less-astute decisions were to dump "Everwood" & "Reba", not to mention the recent debacle with "Smackdown".

Everwood was likely her decision as she chose Veronica Mars and another final seaosn of 7th heaven over Everwood. Any belief that Everwood would have performed better than Veronica Mars going forward is just speculation, though.

Reba was a WB problem put in place before the merger ever occurred and it was Les Moonves that was unhappy with getting stuck with that loss leading contract mess.

Smackdown may have had value for a ratings bragging rights perspective, but there is very little financial value to Smackdown. Advertisers don't want it...and CW advertisers specifically don't want it. When Smackdown tried to get more money out of CW, CW was wise to cut it loose. It will, ultimately, be a better fit with MNTV since they pursue poor young men as a demo with many of their shows.

quote:

More & more, I'm starting to believe that CBS wants the CW to fail so they can claim a big tax write-off.

If they wanted a 'big' tax writeoff, they wouldn't be trying to limit the expenses for the network to shoestring budgetting level.

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:

quote:

Originally posted by robycop3:
Two of her less-astute decisions were to dump "Everwood" & "Reba", not to mention the recent debacle with "Smackdown".

Everwood was likely her decision as she chose Veronica Mars and another final seaosn of 7th heaven over Everwood. Any belief that Everwood would have performed better than Veronica Mars going forward is just speculation, though.

Yes it is speculation but history proved that Everwood was the stronger player in the deal. It was able to handle having no lead in as was noticed when 4 million watched the series finale. You may recall that less than 2 million watched Veronica Mars' series finale. I won't argue with you that the Reba deal was done before hand, but deals can be renegotiated and it was Moonves that basically tried to dump Reba like he did every other WB comedy. It was no secret that his smug arrogant attitude played a role in a contract negotiation not being reached. Reba likely could've been cheapened a bit and brought on for a full 22 episodes and who knows, maybe even another season. I can't imagine what ratings might have been if Reba had been given the more comfy timeslots like the Monday comedies did last year.

I think the bottom line is that a net shouldn't dump its most-viewed show. And at age 60, I've seen enuff TV to know that rasslin' shows have a limited, but hardcore fanbase. The CW might have found some sponsors who liked SD had they tried.

Fact is, TV is not a major part of the lives of most American females ages 18-34. And there are many nets & net-ettes that offer shows for this demo, without focusing their entire slate upon it. That's why the CW will never succeed in having a large viewership in this demo.

I failed Mind-Reading 101, so I dunno what goes on in the minds of Moonves & the other suits at CBS. But it seems none of them want the CW to succeed, & if that's the case, I can't guess their reasons why.

While not a huge CW fan, it does offer some alternative stuff to the usual network fare, & is a cut above the cheap reality junk of VH1, etc. I do hope someone somewhere does what's necessary to save it.

quote:

Originally posted by mushu_jj:
I think it all rides on 90210 this fall. If not, Warner Brothers is likely to cut its losses and get away from a network that quite frankly was mismanaged by CBS folks. Frankly, I'm guessing this new stuff from MRC is nothing but cheap trash that does nothing but nosedive into the ground even more on Sundays and continue to lose money for the network. I do not believe a network can survive alone on women 18-34 and that's why if you are going to lose money somewhere, why not just keep Smackdown and boost your weekly averages?

I want them to keep SmackDown! but Ostroff said that The CW's mission is to target Adults 18-34 (especially FEMALES).

The CW will have a 40% chance to succeed on the Adults 18-34 demograph.

The CW has a 65% chance of succeeding on the Adults 18-49 demograph. As long as NO BAD DECISIONS are made.

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:

quote:

Originally posted by robycop3:
Two of her less-astute decisions were to dump "Everwood" & "Reba", not to mention the recent debacle with "Smackdown".

Everwood was likely her decision as she chose Veronica Mars and another final seaosn of 7th heaven over Everwood. Any belief that Everwood would have performed better than Veronica Mars going forward is just speculation, though.

Reba was a WB problem put in place before the merger ever occurred and it was Les Moonves that was unhappy with getting stuck with that loss leading contract mess.

Smackdown may have had value for a ratings bragging rights perspective, but there is very little financial value to Smackdown. Advertisers don't want it...and CW advertisers specifically don't want it. When Smackdown tried to get more money out of CW, CW was wise to cut it loose. It will, ultimately, be a better fit with MNTV since they pursue poor young men as a demo with many of their shows.

quote:

More & more, I'm starting to believe that CBS wants the CW to fail so they can claim a big tax write-off.

If they wanted a 'big' tax writeoff, they wouldn't be trying to limit the expenses for the network to shoestring budgetting level.

Obveeus has a fuzzy grasp of history and sometimes lets an urge to wave pom-poms for The CW obscure a straight reporting of the facts, so it is necessary to set the record straight.

Everwood was not cancelled to make way for Veronica Mars, it was a last minute cancellation on the very eve of Upfront (so eleventh hour, in fact, that The CW PowerPoints and mock-up website still had Everwood on the sked) to make way for a surprise renewal of Seventh Heaven and insufficient programming budget to renew both. The Veronica Mars renewal was arrived at before the decision to renew Seventh Heaven and cancel Everwood.

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:
It will, ultimately, be a better fit with MNTV since they pursue poor young men as a demo with many of their shows.

Ever since The CW made the huge miscalculation in failing to renew its WWE Smackdown contract before it expired, Obveeus has been on a one-person campaign to denigrate the program and its audience. I have seen no demographic data that the show has any heavier weighting of "poor white men" than The CW's other male-skewing series Smallville and Supernatural. And MyNetworkTV is not a "poor white men" network either. It is a network that attracts an almost even split of young males and young females, and that has been growing with each successive Sweep despite being created from the shards of the shattered WB and UPN networks. Even though The CW made off with all the WB/UPN programming and its pick of the best WB/UPN affiliates, the plucky, resilient, come-from-behind MyNetworkTV has built up a rag-tag band of discarded affiliates to become a vibrant, edgy network that is now positioned to challenge The CW, despite having only a fraction of its programming budget.

Just look at how well MNT performed in the recent May Sweep vs. The CW (year-over-year in parentheses):

Households: CW: 1.7/ 3 (-19%), MNTV: 0.8/ 1 (+14%)
Total Viewers: CW: 2.73 (-14%), MNTV: 1.18 (+24%)
Adults 18-49: CW: 1.1/ 3 (-15%), MNTV: 0.5/ 1 (+25%)
Adults 25-54: CW: 1.1/ 3 (- 8%), MNTV: 0.5/ 1 (+25%)
Adults 18-34: CW: 1.2/ 4 (-20%), MNTV: 0.4/ 1 (+33%)

Ms. Ostroff is captaining a sinking ship, especially when one considers that The CW's worst year-over-year decline (-20%) was in their targeted A18-34 demographic, which just happened to be MyNetworkTV's greatest area of gain (+33%).

Mr. Meidel goes forward into fall with a bigger programming wallet, the full backing of News Corporation, and a sense that fifth place is within his grasp.

Ms. Ostroff goes forward into fall having outsourced kidvid, daytime and Sunday nights to others because The CW can't make a go of those dayparts, and with the Wall Street Journal writing of dissatisfaction from affiliates and at least one of her two major shareholders.

quote:

Originally posted by dumont:

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:

quote:

Originally posted by robycop3:
Two of her less-astute decisions were to dump "Everwood" & "Reba", not to mention the recent debacle with "Smackdown".

Everwood was likely her decision as she chose Veronica Mars and another final seaosn of 7th heaven over Everwood. Any belief that Everwood would have performed better than Veronica Mars going forward is just speculation, though.

Reba was a WB problem put in place before the merger ever occurred and it was Les Moonves that was unhappy with getting stuck with that loss leading contract mess.

Smackdown may have had value for a ratings bragging rights perspective, but there is very little financial value to Smackdown. Advertisers don't want it...and CW advertisers specifically don't want it. When Smackdown tried to get more money out of CW, CW was wise to cut it loose. It will, ultimately, be a better fit with MNTV since they pursue poor young men as a demo with many of their shows.

quote:

More & more, I'm starting to believe that CBS wants the CW to fail so they can claim a big tax write-off.

If they wanted a 'big' tax writeoff, they wouldn't be trying to limit the expenses for the network to shoestring budgetting level.

Obveeus has a fuzzy grasp of history and sometimes lets an urge to wave pom-poms for The CW obscure a straight reporting of the facts, so it is necessary to set the record straight.

Everwood was not cancelled to make way for Veronica Mars, it was a last minute cancellation on the very eve of Upfront (so eleventh hour, in fact, that The CW PowerPoints and mock-up website still had Everwood on the sked) to make way for a surprise renewal of Seventh Heaven and insufficient programming budget to renew both. The Veronica Mars renewal was arrived at before the decision to renew Seventh Heaven and cancel Everwood.

dumont, your reading comprehension has failed you. Try again and you will clearly see that I listed 'another seaosn of 7th Heaven' as one of the decisions that cost Everwood its life. It is the delusional WB fans that think all of 'their' shows should have been renewed when CW was formed. You, and others, believing that Everwood was going to be a success story rather than performing at (or under) 7th heaven/VM ratings are tossing off speculation of a very unlikely kind (similar to your claims of MNTV greattness with each new show...followed by excuses when every show fails to break through.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:
It will, ultimately, be a better fit with MNTV since they pursue poor young men as a demo with many of their shows.

Ever since The CW made the huge miscalculation in failing to renew its WWE Smackdown contract before it expired, Obveeus has been on a one-person campaign to denigrate the program and its audience.

Maybe you should read my old posts from the prior year. I neve rthought Smackdown was a valuable draw for the network. I always thought its value was in taking up 1 night's worth of space so that CW did not have to worry about as much programming. The MRC night serves the same purpose, except that it is scripted programming, thus it is infinitely more useful than Smackdown.

quote:

I have seen no demographic data that the show has any heavier weighting of "poor white men" than The CW's other male-skewing series Smallville and Supernatural.

Smackdown ad rate: $27,000
Smallville ad rate: $77,000
Supernatural ad rate: $57,000

quote:

And MyNetworkTV is not a "poor white men" network either. It is a network that attracts an almost even split of young males and young females,

Poor boys: Smackdown, Jail, Street Patrol, Under One Roof.
Women: movie nights.

quote:

and that has been growing with each successive Sweep despite being created from the shards of the shattered WB and UPN networks.

Substitute the word 'despite' with a more accrate word: 'because'. MNTV wouldn't be 'growing' if it didn't start out near zero. Notice that the growth has dramatically dropped since the end of the WGA strike.

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:
Try again and you will clearly see that I listed 'another seaosn of 7th Heaven' as one of the decisions that cost Everwood its life. It is the delusional WB fans that think all of 'their' shows should have been renewed when CW was formed. You, and others, believing that Everwood was going to be a success story rather than performing at (or under) 7th heaven/VM ratings are tossing off speculation of a very unlikely kind (similar to your claims of MNTV greattness with each new show...followed by excuses when every show fails to break through.

Obveeus, if anyone is delusional when it comes to the CW's launch, then its you. Everwood was a higher rated property the entire time it was on the air. It even survived after Smallville of all programs on Thursdays. It most certainly would have outrated Veronica Mars on the new net. Most people were ready for 7th Heaven to say goodbye based on the ratings for the final season (which in the show's defense, was cheapened to the point where it was almost inrecognizable). Veronica Mars ratings were the same when it had no lead in for most of its run on UPN and were pathetic when it had Gilmore Girls as a lead in. Everwood most certainly would have done better because there simply was a bigger fanbase and creatively the show was stronger than ever. They could've gotten 2 to 3 to 4 more years out of the show. We all know where 7th Heaven and VM ended up. As for WB fans thinking all their shows should return, that's simply not true. The fact of the matter was that Veronica Mars only outrated the sure to be canceled anyway WB property like Pepper Dennis, Bedford Diaries, and the comedies save for Reba. Hell, many weeks, What I Like About You outrated it. If the network's goal was to bring over the higher rated properties, then they sure did a poor job of picking. Even Related was higher rated most weeks than VM. That's where the beef is.

quote:

Originally posted by mushu_jj:

quote:

Originally posted by Obveeus:
Try again and you will clearly see that I listed 'another seaosn of 7th Heaven' as one of the decisions that cost Everwood its life. It is the delusional WB fans that think all of 'their' shows should have been renewed when CW was formed. You, and others, believing that Everwood was going to be a success story rather than performing at (or under) 7th heaven/VM ratings are tossing off speculation of a very unlikely kind (similar to your claims of MNTV greattness with each new show...followed by excuses when every show fails to break through.

Obveeus, if anyone is delusional when it comes to the CW's launch, then its you. Everwood was a higher rated property the entire time it was on the air. It even survived after Smallville of all programs on Thursdays. It most certainly would have outrated Veronica Mars on the new net. Most people were ready for 7th Heaven to say goodbye based on the ratings for the final season (which in the show's defense, was cheapened to the point where it was almost inrecognizable). Veronica Mars ratings were the same when it had no lead in for most of its run on UPN and were pathetic when it had Gilmore Girls as a lead in. Everwood most certainly would have done better because there simply was a bigger fanbase and creatively the show was stronger than ever. They could've gotten 2 to 3 to 4 more years out of the show. We all know where 7th Heaven and VM ended up. As for WB fans thinking all their shows should return, that's simply not true. The fact of the matter was that Veronica Mars only outrated the sure to be canceled anyway WB property like Pepper Dennis, Bedford Diaries, and the comedies save for Reba. Hell, many weeks, What I Like About You outrated it. If the network's goal was to bring over the higher rated properties, then they sure did a poor job of picking. Even Related was higher rated most weeks than VM. That's where the beef is.

Agreed!

Hey, where did COMMON SENSE go? When a prog director cancels a net's MOST-VIEWED show, it's out the window.

A store owner often sells an item at a loss to attract shoppers who are almost sure to buy something else also. Even if CW wasn't making too much off the sponsors of Smackdown, they coulda kept it for lead-in value.

And as I've said before, I watched Everwood a coupla times & didn't like it, but I watched VM regularly. so I'm certainly not prejudiced when I say dropping Everwood & keeping VM was a dumb business decision.

While I've been quick to criticize & blame Ostroff for some of these decisions, I'm beginning to wonder if she's the designated scapegoat for someone else's decision-making, someone(s) who wanna see CW tank. her record a t Lifetime wasn't bad at all, but on that channel she only had to answer to Lifetime Prez Carole Black, & had almost complete freedom of choice fot LT's programming.

I hope if the suits at CBS want CW to fail, that comes to light.

Has anyone heard anything about the MRC block besides the tentative titles? If this is actually going to air in September, you would think they would have announced the key players by now.

quote:

Originally posted by robycop3:
A store owner often sells an item at a loss to attract shoppers who are almost sure to buy something else also. Even if CW wasn't making too much off the sponsors of Smackdown, they coulda kept it for lead-in value.

Smackdown had zero lead-in value because there was no leadout time on Friday night. Smackdown didn't even have value as a crossover for other nights of programming because CW doesn't program shows like Jail and Under One Roof. The crosssover exists for MNTV, but it simply did not exist for CW. There was no reason for CW to pay more money for a show with no crossover and no reason for CW to take over trying to sell that program time stand alone on Friday nights. A 'loss leader' only has value if it pulls in customers for the rest of your products and Smackdown didn't do that.

quote:

I hope if the suits at CBS want CW to fail, that comes to light.

I don't think they want it to fail. They just want it to lose as small an amount of money as possible while they park on the air 'space' for the time being.