Airing a comedy after a drama never seems to work and that applies to HBO too, Both Hung and Entourage got 3m+ airing afrer True Blood so it not exclusive to Showtime.
I'm not sure that's the problem, and anyway, Dexter and Cali are both basically 'dramedies'. True Blood is not exactly 100% serious either, you know. These categories don't apply very well to this type of programming--they aren't procedurals and sitcoms.
quote:
Dexter beat both Curb and Bored to Death so clearly Showtime isn't the failure pisher makes it out to be
True Blood beats Dexter and Cali combined, with Weeds thrown in, and Hung did better than either, so not seeing your point. Showtime as a whole is financially successful (though less profitable than the other premium channels), but the quest of its original programming to reach audiences equivalent to HBO's hits will never succeed if it can't produce shows as powerful and original as HBO's best--and so far, it can't.
quote:
and Californication despite the horrible retention beat Bored to Death too, something tells HBO may be regretting renewing it.
BTD had a far better retention level, though. Even if you factor in the higher number of potential viewers, you could argue it's doing BETTER than Cali, relative to reasonable expectations. It's a new show, it has less of a lead-in, and faces tougher timeslot competition.
Showtime's original shows can only do well or poorly in relation to each other. They are playing in a much smaller universe than anyone else.
Californication's retention from Dexter was horrible last year too, but this year Californication's ratings are 60% better than last year. That can't be explained away by the additional subscribers or by Dexter's improved ratings. I think Californication has it's own audience that are going to watch the show or not and it has very little to do with how well Dexter does.
I would be more than happy to see Californication moved away from Dexter and given it's own 9:00 timeslot. I'm happy enough that it has a fourth season, and it's more than time for it to sink or swim on it's own.
And 820,000 is only 2000 viewers away from Californication's own series high. Showtime is giving HBO a run for it's money on Sunday night with both of these shows beating both of HBO's shows and with 30% less subscribers.
I am glad we can both be happy, pisher. Me. for my reasons, and you for yours.
And fans of Bored to Death can be just as happy as you, prada. It's renewed. Not that difficult a feat on pay cable. Neither is doing better than Californication, which is why BTD is doing just that.
Yes, Cali's larger audience can be attributed ENTIRELY to the slightly stronger lead-in, and the much higher subscriber levels, which also boosted Dexter--but it took millions of new potential viewers to add thousands of actual viewers to their ranks, indicating that the subscriber increase had little or nothing to do with Showtime's original programming.
Sorry, but retention levels like that don't lie. Cali is a flop, coasting on Showtime's traditional reluctance to cancel ANYTHING.
And fans of Bored to Death can be just as happy as you, prada. It's renewed. Not that difficult a feat on pay cable. Neither is doing better than Californication, which is why BTD is doing just that.
Yes, Cali's larger audience can be attributed ENTIRELY to the slightly stronger lead-in, and the much higher subscriber levels, which also boosted Dexter--but it took millions of new potential viewers to add thousands of actual viewers to their ranks, indicating that the subscriber increase had little or nothing to do with Showtime's original programming.
Sorry, but retention levels like that don't lie. Cali is a flop, coasting on Showtime's traditional reluctance to cancel ANYTHING.
Californication is a flop? Let's see. A flop that is up 60% from last season. A flop that has garnered nominations for best comedy in the Golden Globes and and two nominations and one win for best actor from the same, along with nominations from SAG? A flop that was renewed for a 4th season directly after it's 3rd season premiere?
Sorry, but nothing you say really makes any sense whatsoever. I think your hatred of Showtime has blinded you to the true facts of the situation.
Californication is a flop? Let's see. A flop that is up 60% from last season. A flop that has garnered nominations for best comedy in the Golden Globes and and two nominations and one win for best actor from the same, along with nominations from SAG? A flop that was renewed for a 4th season directly after it's 3rd season premiere?
Sorry, but nothing you say really makes any sense whatsoever. I think your hatred of Showtime has blinded you to the true facts of the situation.
Hear, Hear! I think Pisher should direct his bashing at Starz which scored 157,000 for Crash and they have slightly more subcribers than Showtime do so clearly the originals have had some effects, HBO has had years to build its reputation, Showtime along with AMC and FX has forced HBO to up its game and Starz has started getting into scripted originals and I have to say Spartacus looks impressive and could be their breakout hit.
Well, according to Doug's formula of retention, which I told him I'd be reminding him of presently.
quote:
Let's see. A flop that is up 60% from last season.
Which would be impressive--if the lead-in wasn't up so much more, and if both increases weren't caused by factors that had nothing to do with either show.
quote:
A flop that has garnered nominations for best comedy in the Golden Globes and and two nominations and one win for best actor from the same, along with nominations from SAG?
What does that rather meager list have to do with ratings success, for a show that can't even approach the one million mark for an original airing after three seasons, with the biggest possible lead-in, against modest competition?
quote:
A flop that was renewed for a 4th season directly after it's 3rd season premiere?
You mean like that massive HBO hit, Bored to Death, renewed right after its first season premiere? Actually, aren't a lot of pay cable shows renewed shortly after their premieres?
You need to stop telling yourself you know how to play this game, kiddo. Unless the game you want to play is "Hand pisher straight lines".
43% retention. You lose the argument. Try again later.
Californication is a flop? Let's see. A flop that is up 60% from last season. A flop that has garnered nominations for best comedy in the Golden Globes and and two nominations and one win for best actor from the same, along with nominations from SAG? A flop that was renewed for a 4th season directly after it's 3rd season premiere?
Sorry, but nothing you say really makes any sense whatsoever. I think your hatred of Showtime has blinded you to the true facts of the situation.
Hear, Hear! I think Pisher should direct his bashing at Starz which scored 157,000 for Crash and they have slightly more subcribers than Showtime do so clearly the originals have had some effects, HBO has had years to build its reputation, Showtime along with AMC and FX has forced HBO to up its game and Starz has started getting into scripted originals and I have to say Spartacus looks impressive and could be their breakout hit.
Well, Starz is doing at least as well as Showtime in terms of subscriber increases, and is MORE profitable. Showtime's original series are vanity projects--they aren't driving the subscriber increases, and they are lowering profitability. It's easy to run somebody else's movies--it's hard to run a network people have to pay to see, and so far only HBO has really managed to pull it off--the others are running a deficit enterprise, eating up the profits they make from showing the movies.
HBO will continue to dominate this niche until some other pay cable outfit learns how to make programming people really care about.
I really don't have time for Starz, but thanks for your confidence in my bashing abilities.
quote: ________________________________________________ Californication is a flop? _____________________________________________
quote: _______________________________________________ Well, according to Doug's formula of retention, which I told him I'd be reminding him of presently. ________________________________________________
Who is Doug ? Does he work for Showtime or HBO?
quote: _____________________________________________ Let's see. A flop that is up 60% from last season. ____________________________________________
quote: ________________________________________________ Which would be impressive--if the lead-in wasn't up so much more, and if both increases weren't caused by factors that had nothing to do with either show. ________________________________________________
Dexter's ratings are really impressive for a show in it's 4th season, I agree,but a 60% increase for Californication, let alone any show on tv today is also nothing to sneeze at either. When you look at the broadcast networks and how what is considered good ratings now compared to even 5 years ago you can really begin to understand just how impressive these increases are. As for the reasons Dexter and Californications ratings have increased, it is only your opinion and speculation that these were caused by factors that had nothing to do with either show.
quote _________________________________________________________________________ A flop that has garnered nominations for best comedy in the Golden Globes and and two nominations and one win for best actor from the same, along with nominations from SAG? ____________________________________________________________________________
quote _____________________________________________________________________________ What does that rather meager list have to do with ratings success, for a show that can't even approach the one million mark for an original airing after three seasons, with the biggest possible lead-in, against modest competition? _____________________________________________________________________________ Hey! That list isn't meager. You are just being mean. It doesn't have anything to do with ratings success, really, but I just like to bring it up. Because I love this show. Which brings me to your next point about it not approaching the one million mark after three seasons. Well, you said it yourself. If any show could be called a niche show it would be Californication. This is not a show for the masses. Either you love it or you hate it and there is no inbetween. For a niche show the ratings are good and getting better by the year.
quote: ______________________________________________________________________________ A flop that was renewed for a 4th season directly after it's 3rd season premiere? ____________________________________________________________________
quote ___________________________________________________________________________ You mean like that massive HBO hit, Bored to Death, renewed right after its first season premiere? Actually, aren't a lot of pay cable shows renewed shortly after their premieres? ____________________________________________________________________________
No, pay cable shows are not renewed shortly after their premieres unless the numbers are good enough to do so. Bored to Death had the good numbers. It premiered at 1million viewers. Californication had the numbers. It premiered at 821,000 viewers and 57% above it's last season premiere.
The difference between these two shows is that while Bored to Death did premiere at 1million viewers, it's ratings have variated wildly back and forth since the premiere. Down as much as 400,000 and back up and then back down again. It is now only starting to level out and maybe slowly climb, perhaps because it is finding it's own audience independent of it's lead in.
Californication, on the other hand,premiered at 821,000 and has remained steady ever since. It has never lost more than 49,000 viewers between weeks and in fact has basically kept the numbers between less than 10,000. This despite the fact that Dexter has climbed as high as 1,874 mil and been as low as 1,374mil, which only goes to show how independent of each other these two shows are. Dexter has it's audience and Californication has theirs. One basically has nothing to do with the other.
_______________________________________________________________________________ You need to stop telling yourself you know how to play this game, kiddo. Unless the game you want to play is "Hand pisher straight lines".
43% retention. You lose the argument. Try again later. _______________________________________________________________________________
And you really need to broaden your horizens a little. HBO and Showtime are not broadcast networks. They don't depend on demos. They don't depend on overnight ratings. They don't depend on retention, or at least initial overnight retention. These shows on pay cable are played over and over again throughout the entire week. They are on DVR. They are on On Demand. It's the whole package that matters in the end. Actually, it is only the number of subscribers that matter in the end, and Showtime has gained millions of them. They must be doing something right.
Douglas. He works here. Kinda. We were arguing much earlier on this thread, and he was dissing Fringe (people seem to think that bothers me, even though I've been talking about how much it sucks this season), and he said no show that can't keep more than 50% of its lead-in is a hit. Well, what does that make a show that can't keep 45% of its lead-in?
quote:
Dexter's ratings are really impressive for a show in it's 4th season,
\
Dexter's ratings are impressive for a show on Showtime. Period.
quote:
I agree,but a 60% increase for Californication, let alone any show on tv today is also nothing to sneeze at either.
(pisher sneezes)
You are confusing the issue when you compare pay cable to other venues. All the pay cable channels got a lot of new subscribers, because of the recession. A small percentage of them choose to watch the scripted shows. With such tiny ratings to begin with, it only takes a small number to increase the ratings. But produce verified ratings from previous seasons (links included) to prove Cali is up 60%
quote:
Hey! That list isn't meager. You are just being mean.
That's not really an either/or deal, you know.
quote:
No, pay cable shows are not renewed shortly after their premieres unless the numbers are good enough to do so.
Yes they are. Constantly. It's company policy, for HBO and Showtime. Remember, they order whole seasons all at once--none of this back 9 business. They want to show confidence in their shows--it's not a terrible policy, but it does lead to some bad calls. "Tell Me You Love Me" got renewed, but they took that back. Honestly--how many HBO or Showtime series have EVER failed to get a second season, at least?
quote:
Bored to Death had the good numbers.
No it didn't. See, I don't blindly favor HBO. I hate most of their shows as well. I just notice that it's the only pay cable channel making ANY genuine hits. Nothing on Showtime is a hit except ON Showtime. Their shows reach a tiny tiny number of people. True Blood, when you factor in the massive DVD sales, reaches more people than all Showtime's original programming COMBINED.
quote:
Californication, on the other hand,premiered at 821,000
And you say it's up 60%. Talk about fuzzy math.
quote:
And you really need to broaden your horizens a little.
And you need to read some books, kiddo. If Showtime is what you consider 'broadening horizons', yours are about as broad as a piece of string.
Top 10 Markets (with Detroit, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Indianapolis & Ft. Myers-Naples) Final Household Ratings-Primetime Sunday, November 1
# 1 # 2 # 3 # 4 # 5
Time Net Program NY LA CHI PHI DAL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7:00 ABC America's Funniest Home Videos 4.4/ 7 3.2/ 5 4.7/ 7 5.6/ 8 4.4/ 8
8:00 ABC Extreme Makeover: Home Edition 6.1/ 8 4.6/ 7 6.5/10 4.2/ 6 6.1/10
9:00 ABC Desperate Housewives 8.5/11 5.4/ 9 11.9/18 7.6/10 7.6/12
10:00 ABC Brothers & Sisters 6.2/ 9 4.1/ 9 9.4/15 5.0/ 7 6.2/10
7:00 CBS 60 Minutes 10.1/15 5.8/10 9.8/15 9.6/14 5.4/10
8:00 CBS Amazing Race 15 6.2/ 9 4.0/ 6 6.8/11 5.2/ 7 4.8/ 8
9:00 CBS Three Rivers 4.0/ 5 2.9/ 5 4.7/ 7 3.7/ 5 3.2/ 5
10:00 CBS Cold Case 5.5/ 8 4.1/ 9 6.4/10 6.0/ 8 6.5/10
7:00 NBC Football Night In America 1.8/ 3 0.8/ 2 1.7/ 3 2.3/ 3 1.4/ 3
7:30 NBC Football Night In America 1.6/ 2 1.0/ 4 3.1/ 5 1.8/ 3 3.3/ 6
8:00 NBC MOVIE: National Treasure (R) 1.1/ 2 2.4/ 4 3.2/ 5 1.8/ 2 3.4/ 5
7:30 FOX The OT 11.0/16 8.1/17 8.3/13 16.7/24 14.0/25
8:00 FOX MLB Baseball: World Series Pre-Game 23.5/33 8.4/18 9.4/15 35.3/47 10.0/18
8:15 FOX MLB Baseball: WS Game 4: NYY @ PHI 26.6/37 11.7/24 10.5/16 39.3/52 11.5/19
8:30 FOX 30.9/42 12.6/25 11.0/17 43.8/57 11.2/18
8:45 FOX 30.1/40 12.6/24 10.9/17 43.9/57 11.4/18
9:00 FOX 32.3/43 12.9/25 10.0/15 44.5/57 11.7/19
9:15 FOX 31.2/42 13.3/25 10.9/16 44.4/57 11.7/19
9:30 FOX 33.1/44 14.4/26 11.9/18 46.6/61 12.2/19
9:45 FOX 32.7/44 15.5/ 0 12.1/18 45.2/59 12.2/19
10:00 FOX 32.4/45 16.3/27 12.7/19 45.9/61 12.9/20
10:15 FOX 31.2/45 12.2/20 10.1/15 40.0/56 10.5/17
10:30 FOX 30.5/45 13.1/21 9.4/15 38.0/54 9.9/16
10:45 FOX 29.9/45 15.5/25 10.1/16 38.8/57 9.2/15
11:00 FOX 31.9/53 15.6/25 9.8/17 39.4/61 11.0/19
11:15 FOX 31.2/53 17.2/27 11.3/20 38.7/63 10.5/19
11:30 FOX 32.2/58 19.2/30 13.4/26 40.0/68 11.4/23
11:45 FOX 26.7/53 12.3/20 6.3/13 25.5/50 8.3/18
6:00 ION MOVIE: Hunt for Red October (R) 0.5/ 1 0.4/ 1 0.7/ 1 0.6/ 1 0.4/ 1
8:30 ION MOVIE: Breach (R) 0.1/ 0 0.2/ 0 0.4/ 1 0.4/ 1 0.5/ 1
# 6 # 7 # 8 # 9 #10
Time Net Program SF/OAK/SJ BOS ATL WSH DC HOU
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7:00 ABC America's Funniest Home Videos 1.9/ 3 5.3/ 8 4.6/ 7 3.8/ 6 4.9/ 8
8:00 ABC Extreme Makeover: Home Edition 3.1/ 5 6.2/ 9 6.3/ 9 4.6/ 7 4.9/ 8
9:00 ABC Desperate Housewives 6.2/12 8.6/13 11.0/16 7.8/12 6.9/11
10:00 ABC Brothers & Sisters 5.1/12 7.3/13 7.7/12 6.1/11 5.3/ 9
7:00 CBS 60 Minutes 9.0/16 10.3/16 6.3/10 8.8/14 7.4/13
8:00 CBS Amazing Race 15 6.2/10 6.3/ 9 4.9/ 7 5.3/ 8 5.9/ 9
9:00 CBS Three Rivers 4.4/ 8 5.5/ 8 4.6/ 7 4.4/ 7 5.0/ 8
10:00 CBS Cold Case 3.7/ 8 5.4/10 6.8/11 4.5/ 8 6.6/11
7:00 NBC Football Night In America 0.7/ 1 1.9/ 3 1.9/ 3 1.7/ 3 3.6/ 6
7:30 NBC Football Night In America 1.7/ 4 3.0/ 5 1.5/ 2 3.3/ 5 4.3/ 7
8:00 NBC MOVIE: National Treasure (R) 1.5/ 3 2.1/ 3 2.5/ 4 2.0/ 3 3.3/ 5
7:30 FOX The OT 9.7/25 7.1/11 11.7/18 13.5/22 7.4/12
8:00 FOX MLB Baseball: World Series Pre-Game 10.5/25 9.1/14 10.0/14 11.3/18 7.2/12
8:15 FOX MLB Baseball: WS Game 4: NYY @ PHI 11.8/27 12.5/18 10.9/15 15.1/23 8.5/14
8:30 FOX 13.8/30 16.1/23 12.7/18 15.3/24 8.3/13
8:45 FOX 14.2/30 14.9/21 11.7/16 13.7/21 9.0/14
9:00 FOX 14.3/29 13.2/20 10.5/15 14.4/22 8.2/13
9:15 FOX 15.2/29 12.6/19 12.0/17 15.9/24 7.6/12
9:30 FOX 14.5/27 13.0/20 13.7/20 15.9/24 8.2/13
9:45 FOX 15.5/29 13.5/21 11.5/17 14.1/22 7.7/12
10:00 FOX 16.1/29 14.3/24 12.7/19 15.0/24 9.1/14
10:15 FOX 14.9/26 12.8/22 10.9/17 13.6/24 8.2/13
10:30 FOX 14.5/26 12.7/23 10.6/17 13.6/24 8.3/14
10:45 FOX 16.1/28 11.7/23 10.2/17 13.2/24 9.0/15
11:00 FOX 16.9/29 11.2/24 9.5/18 13.8/27 8.3/14
11:15 FOX 18.0/30 10.6/25 10.0/21 13.7/29 9.0/16
11:30 FOX 19.6/33 10.7/26 10.7/25 15.0/32 9.6/19
11:45 FOX 13.0/22 7.1/20 8.0/20 11.1/25 5.8/12
6:00 ION MOVIE: Hunt for Red October (R) 0.8/ 1 0.7/ 1 0.4/ 1 0.6/ 1 0.4/ 1
8:30 ION MOVIE: Breach (R) 0.6/ 1 0.6/ 1 0.8/ 1 0.5/ 1 0.6/ 1
#11 #14 #15 #25 #64
Time Net Program DET TAM-StP MIN-StPl IND FtMy-Npl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7:00 ABC America's Funniest Home Videos 8.4/13 3.6/ 6^^ 4.3/ 7 6.7/10 3.1/ 5
8:00 ABC Extreme Makeover: Home Edition 9.5/15 5.2/ 8^^ 8.8/14 9.8/14 4.7/ 7
9:00 ABC Desperate Housewives 12.6/19 6.4/10^^ 12.0/18 13.6/20 6.3/ 9
10:00 ABC Brothers & Sisters 10.0/17 3.8/ 7^^ 8.9/14 6.8/11 5.4/ 9
7:00 CBS 60 Minutes 5.3/ 8 8.5/13 7.8/12 6.4/10 11.2/17
8:00 CBS Amazing Race 15 3.8/ 6 4.5/ 7 7.7/12 5.8/ 8 6.8/10
9:00 CBS Three Rivers 3.6/ 5 4.2/ 6 5.7/ 8 4.1/ 6 5.5/ 8
10:00 CBS Cold Case 5.2/ 9 6.6/11 8.3/13 6.4/11 5.4/ 9
7:00 NBC Football Night In America 3.3/ 5 1.9/ 3 0.4/ 1 2.4/ 4 2.4/ 4
7:30 NBC Football Night In America 2.8/ 4 1.4/ 2 2.3/ 4 3.8/ 6 3.3/ 5
8:00 NBC MOVIE: National Treasure (R) 5.4/ 8 2.3/ 4 4.5/ 7 4.8/ 7 3.7/ 6
7:30 FOX The OT 8.0/13 13.1/20 21.2/35 14.0/22 11.1/17
8:00 FOX MLB Baseball: World Series Pre-Game 7.7/12 11.8/17 14.1/23 9.2/14 11.3/17
8:15 FOX MLB Baseball: WS Game 4: NYY @ PHI 8.2/13 14.6/21 15.9/25 11.4/17 13.1/19
8:30 FOX 10.4/16 15.8/23 15.9/24 11.3/16 13.2/19
8:45 FOX 11.3/17 15.9/24 16.2/24 11.6/16 13.7/20
9:00 FOX 10.2/15 15.5/24 13.8/20 11.0/16 14.0/21
9:15 FOX 11.6/17 15.9/25 14.2/21 11.7/17 13.8/20
9:30 FOX 12.2/18 16.4/26 16.1/23 13.3/19 13.7/21
9:45 FOX 10.3/16 16.1/25 13.8/20 13.1/18 12.3/19
10:00 FOX 9.6/15 18.1/29 15.3/23 12.9/20 14.0/23
10:15 FOX 8.6/14 15.8/26 12.8/20 12.1/20 12.4/21
10:30 FOX 8.7/15 14.0/24 11.6/19 11.4/20 11.6/20
10:45 FOX 9.9/17 14.4/27 11.2/19 10.7/20 10.9/20
11:00 FOX 8.8/16 12.9/27 10.4/18 9.9/20 10.9/23
11:15 FOX 8.8/17 13.4/30 12.1/23 9.6/22 10.9/24
11:30 FOX 9.4/20 13.7/33 15.1/31 10.0/25 12.1/29
11:45 FOX 7.6/18 9.7/27 7.2/17 8.6/23 8.5/21
6:00 ION MOVIE: Hunt for Red October (R) 0.5/ 1 0.5/ 1 0.2/ 0 0.4/ 1
8:30 ION MOVIE: Breach (R) 0.1/ 0 0.4/ 1 0.8/ 1 0.2/ 0
^^ Combined rating of this market's two ABC affiliates
New York City Marathon (NBC; WNBC-4 in New York) Sunday, November 1
It doesn't have anything to do with ratings success, really, but I just like to bring it up. Because I love this show. Which brings me to your next point about it not approaching the one million mark after three seasons. Well, you said it yourself. If any show could be called a niche show it would be Californication. This is not a show for the masses. Either you love it or you hate it and there is no inbetween. For a niche show the ratings are good and getting better by the year. 
New York City Marathon (NBC; WNBC-4 in New York)
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