Originally posted by robert: Disappointing results for everyone, including for CBS. I guess that's the end for CL
Oh no not just yet
Unless it pulls around 8.5 to 9 million next week, I'd say its dead. Fox has a huge slate of new dramas and very few timeslots to fill. New Amsterdam still has a shot at renewal, but its overall unlikely. And last night's results were poor overall.
But i think fox would be smart and pair NA with CL on fridays.
Friday 8:00pm New Amsterdam 9:00pm Canterburys Law
This is yet another piece of the puzzle to try and win the "total viewership" crowd over, and hopefully help them realize it's not all it's cracked up to be (by Moonves).
Yeah, see how valuable those 11 mil viewers that are watching NCIS are compared to the 6 mil that are watching NBC's 30 Rock, and tell me that the demo is less significant.
That's not the whole story though, syndication is where the real money is made and I guarantee you 30 Rock will not survive long (if it even makes it) to regular syndication. NCIS, on the other hand, will do very well I'm sure for USA in coming years.
A setback set of numbers for Canterbury's Law. Hopefully, next weeks season finale will go out with a season high in viewers and demo, and give Mr. Reilly something to think about for upfronts. If it doesn't get a fall renewal, it will go down as a very crafty miniseries that might very well snare a few Emmy nominations.
Also, a rather low demo score for CBS's Ghost Whisperer, given that it was fresh (and what a moving episode too). Maybe once Moonlight is fresh again in a few weeks, more young viewers might flock again to Friday nights.
I also enjoyed the MyFridayNightMovie, VITAL SIGNS, on MyNetworkTV last night, about sexy young interns in a hospital and their dalliances in between surgeries...the set of characters and situations seem to have been the inspiration for Grey's Anatomy fifteen years later.
And speaking of MyNetworkTV, they're having a rather competitive week with The CW, behind by only 0.2 in A25-54 (understandably, not The CW's target demo) after the first four days of Week 29:
Encores of MNT's Jail also surpassed a repeat of CW's Reaper in the demo for the hour on Tuesday night, 0.7 vs 0.5 in A18-49.
Next week, with "Under One Roof" and "The Best of In Living Color" debuting Wednesday on MyNetworkTV, it could be the game-changer that sees MyNetworkTV ahead in three-night numbers (for the first time) and perhaps even four-night numbers.
Originally posted by robert: Disappointing results for everyone, including for CBS. I guess that's the end for CL
Oh no not just yet
Unless it pulls around 8.5 to 9 million next week, I'd say its dead. Fox has a huge slate of new dramas and very few timeslots to fill. New Amsterdam still has a shot at renewal, but its overall unlikely. And last night's results were poor overall.
But i think fox would be smart and pair NA with CL on fridays.
Friday 8:00pm New Amsterdam 9:00pm Canterburys Law
Because fox has a sucky friday
So Fridays can be even lower rated? Bones is going to Fridays next fall and likely will get paired with either a) a new drama, b)possibly New Amsterdam, or c) a reality/game show. The two Monday night players from January (PB and SCC) will return there and House will be used to launch a new drama in all likelihood on Tuesdays. Don't even think of dramas on Wed. as both ABC, NBC, CW, and CBS all use dramas on this night. Fox will prolly stick to Til Death, B2Y, and Kitchen Nightmares. I don't see a shortened comedy block on Sundays either and Thursdays are better than ever with 5th Grader and Lyrics.
Originally posted by dumont: A setback set of numbers for Canterbury's Law. Hopefully, next weeks season finale will go out with a season high in viewers and demo, and give Mr. Reilly something to think about for upfronts. If it doesn't get a fall renewal, it will go down as a very crafty miniseries that might very well snare a few Emmy nominations.
Also, a rather low demo score for CBS's Ghost Whisperer, given that it was fresh (and what a moving episode too). Maybe once Moonlight is fresh again in a few weeks, more young viewers might flock again to Friday nights.
1. The only Emmy nods that CL deserves are for Marguiles or however you spell ER lady's name. The supporting cast was terrible.
2. Moonlight brings in less younger viewers than Ghost Whisperer. Not sure how that will help the Friday situation. If anything, CBS will be the same or lower next week with a Moonlight repeat smudged in at 9pm.
This is yet another piece of the puzzle to try and win the "total viewership" crowd over, and hopefully help them realize it's not all it's cracked up to be (by Moonves).
Yeah, see how valuable those 11 mil viewers that are watching NCIS are compared to the 6 mil that are watching NBC's 30 Rock, and tell me that the demo is less significant.
That's not the whole story though, syndication is where the real money is made and I guarantee you 30 Rock will not survive long (if it even makes it) to regular syndication. NCIS, on the other hand, will do very well I'm sure for USA in coming years.
OF COURSE, I KNOW. I said already, if you want to explore every angle of this, we can do it all day. How about 30 Rock's value as an online/viral prescense (fairly good) vs NCIS' (basically zip)? How about 30 Rock's DVD sales (bigger) vs. NCIS' (smaller)?
To make it real simple, can we focus on the network's tangible, immediate income brought in by these shows? Because we have actual figures for that.
I didn't mean for us to get into nitty gritty of which show will bring in more dollars by the year 2010 for the season currently airing.
I only meant for this to show that a) it is more complex than most people seem to realize, and b) it's certainly not all about total viewership.
I am, however, thrilled to be having this discussion with you, because that shows at least these two points aren't lost on you (like they are to too many).
This is yet another piece of the puzzle to try and win the "total viewership" crowd over, and hopefully help them realize it's not all it's cracked up to be (by Moonves).
Yeah, see how valuable those 11 mil viewers that are watching NCIS are compared to the 6 mil that are watching NBC's 30 Rock, and tell me that the demo is less significant.
Out of curiousity, does anyone in the ad business know how much MyNetworkTV averaged last fall for ads in its fall slate?
Monday - MyNetworkSpecials / Celebrity Expose Tuesdays - The Academy / Jail Wednesdays - Decision House / Meet My Folks Thursdays - MyThursdayNightMovie Fridays - MyFridayNightMovie Saturdays - NFL Total Access / IFL Battleground
Originally posted by the128boy: And believe me, when I consider what is a hit, I consider the number of bankable dollars, not simply the number of tv's tuned into a certain channel.
So, how much does DwtS cost per half hour to make vs. The Office? If you are really going to look at bankable dollars, then you can't just talk about ad rates.
Well, OF COURSE not. I'm not saying this chart is a tell-all either. If it was, we could still all be marketing geniuses if we could read that $100,000 is more than $80,000.
*sigh*
Do you really want me to delve into tiny details?
Another factor we have to look at is how any show impacts the feel of the networks nightly or weekly lineup. Is a show getting buzz or not? Even if a show (FNL) doesn't make the big bucks, does it draw attention to the net's press prescense (thus increasing possible rates across the board?) If so, how much is that increased attention worth? Does scheduling a reality show bring down the night's image, thus hurting ad values across not one, but three hours? If no, does it increase it? If yes, how damaging is it? ETC, ETC, ETC.
We could all go on for hours (that's why this forum is here :-)
But the point still remains that this chart is a fairly good guage (at least when comparing scripted vs scripted or unscripted vs unscripted, if you insist) when comparing how valuable (and in MY book at least, how big of a hit) a show really is.
A show imo is in many ways only as valuable as the networks want them to be. For instance, its clear Fox doesn't give a rats rear end about Canteburry's Law or New Amsterdam for that matter. They were given fairly minimal promotion and had their sets torn down before they even launched in addition to getting episode orders cut. While both have done better than anyone expected (especially CL on Fridays), both are still doing mediocre at best and without the network support, programs that maybe don't rate much higher but have network support (Prison Break and T:SCC) will fill the holes instead. Ditto for til death and B2Y on Wednesdays.
Originally posted by dumont: If it doesn't get a fall renewal, it will go down as a very crafty miniseries that might very well snare a few Emmy nominations.
How often do the Emmy people put a first year show up for nomination, much less a win if it is cancelled?
quote:
I also enjoyed the MyFridayNightMovie, VITAL SIGNS, on MyNetworkTV last night, about sexy young interns in a hospital and their dalliances in between surgeries...the set of characters and situations seem to have been the inspiration for Grey's Anatomy fifteen years later.
Grey's Anatomy is just a knockoff of ER which is a knockoff of St. Elsewhere...and you could probably extend the idea back to Marcus Welby MD or General Hospital or whatever. In any case, the only thing that Grey's Anatomy perfected is the idea of not even bothering with the medical part of the equation at all. If you liked the show, though, I'm sure you will eagerly watch to see where CW puts Austin Golden Hour on TV this Fall.
This is yet another piece of the puzzle to try and win the "total viewership" crowd over, and hopefully help them realize it's not all it's cracked up to be (by Moonves).
Yeah, see how valuable those 11 mil viewers that are watching NCIS are compared to the 6 mil that are watching NBC's 30 Rock, and tell me that the demo is less significant.
That's not the whole story though, syndication is where the real money is made and I guarantee you 30 Rock will not survive long (if it even makes it) to regular syndication. NCIS, on the other hand, will do very well I'm sure for USA in coming years.
OF COURSE, I KNOW. I said already, if you want to explore every angle of this, we can do it all day. How about 30 Rock's value as an online/viral prescense (fairly good) vs NCIS' (basically zip)? How about 30 Rock's DVD sales (bigger) vs. NCIS' (smaller)?
To make it real simple, can we focus on the network's tangible, immediate income brought in by these shows? Because we have actual figures for that.
I didn't mean for us to get into nitty gritty of which show will bring in more dollars by the year 2010 for the season currently airing.
I only meant for this to show that a) it is more complex than most people seem to realize, and b) it's certainly not all about total viewership.
I'm thrilled to be having this discussion with you, because that shows at least these two points aren't lost on you (like they are to too many).
I agree that online and DVD sales are important, but keep in mind that they're only getting .99 per ep on iTunes and most people say screw it and either watch the streaming version or just download via Limewire and other programs for free. The syndication revenue of these programs is still an easier way to make money and those proceduralized shows are the keys to syndication right now. Of course then there's the whole aspect of how much programs cost and NCIS, with its less known cast, probably is cheaper in that department too. The end result is that both shows are probably making money and thats what matters.
Originally posted by dumont: If it doesn't get a fall renewal, it will go down as a very crafty miniseries that might very well snare a few Emmy nominations.
How often do the Emmy people put a first year show up for nomination, much less a win if it is cancelled?
quote:
I also enjoyed the MyFridayNightMovie, VITAL SIGNS, on MyNetworkTV last night, about sexy young interns in a hospital and their dalliances in between surgeries...the set of characters and situations seem to have been the inspiration for Grey's Anatomy fifteen years later.
Grey's Anatomy is just a knockoff of ER which is a knockoff of St. Elsewhere...and you could probably extend the idea back to Marcus Welby MD or General Hospital or whatever. In any case, the only thing that Grey's Anatomy perfected is the idea of not even bothering with the medical part of the equation at all. If you liked the show, though, I'm sure you will eagerly watch to see where CW puts Austin Golden Hour on TV this Fall.
Originally posted by mushu_jj: A show imo is in many ways only as valuable as the networks want them to be.
That is absolutely true. Take FNL. If NBC didn't REALLY REALLY want this show, it would be gone.
However, even though I still don't think this was financially viable for NBC, I am relatively certain they have some interesting information that influenced them to renew this show. I am quite sure there have been moves by networks (3rd season of 30 Rock) that will always be pointed to as a "mistake" by those who simply don't have access to inside company info (although for me the 3rd season of 30R was a no-brainer, and NOT because I'm a fan).
If the discussion was about network profit, then DVD sales and syndication rights add zero to the network profits. Online presense does add to network profits though page visits and some shows (though certainly not FNL or 30 Rock) do raise the entire network up through their presense. Still, the bulk of any show's profitability boils down to network license cost vs. ad revenue. If you have to start pullling in numbers other than those two in order to claim the show is making money, then it isn't.
Originally posted by dumont: If it doesn't get a fall renewal, it will go down as a very crafty miniseries that might very well snare a few Emmy nominations.
How often do the Emmy people put a first year show up for nomination, much less a win if it is cancelled?
My Name is Earl [05-06 Emmy]: + Outstanding Directing for a Comedy Series, Pilot + Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series, Pilot The New Adventures of Old Christine [05-06 Emmy]: + Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series, Julia Louis-Dreyfus The Office [05-06 Emmy]: + Outstanding Comedy Series
30 Rock [06-07 Emmy]: + Outstanding Comedy Series Ugly Betty [06-07 Emmy]: + Outstanding Directing for a Comedy Series + Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series, America Ferrera Brothers & Sisters [06-07 Emmy]: + Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series, Sally Fields
True, none of these were in danger of being axed by the net they were on but it is possible a first yr show can be nominated and also take home the gold. The Emmy looks towards quality of the show and how much attention it has garnered, a la Arrested Development.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: XLR8,
Originally posted by Obveeus: If the discussion was about network profit, then DVD sales and syndication rights add zero to the network profits. Online presense does add to network profits though page visits and some shows (though certainly not FNL or 30 Rock) do raise the entire network up through their presense. Still, the bulk of any show's profitability boils down to network license cost vs. ad revenue. If you have to start pullling in numbers other than those two in order to claim the show is making money, then it isn't.
I think you are overlooking the huge apsect of non-monetary profit (that often shows up again, monetarily). What I mean is, let's say somebody hears about 30 Rock and FNL. Let's say they know those shows are on NBC. Let's say that they are vulnerable to marketers (everybody is, even myself, and i'm a marketing major, so nobody should try to deny it, or think that it's a sign of weakness). Let's say that they know those shows are acclaimed by critics.
One outcome is that subliminally they percieve NBC to be a quality network. So even if they don't currently watch anything on the show... even if they arn't REMOTELY interested in those critically acclaimed shows... in the fall, they might be tempted to switch on one of NBC's new dramas, or comedys, etc.
This is just one out of a million examples of intangible benefits that all shows have. Some of the intangibles are good, some, seemingly, are bad. I remember when NBC cancelled "Fear Factor" based on the claim that it lowered audiences perception of NBC "quality" of programming. (well, that and crappy ratings :-)
It's these intangibles that are the big X factor. These things can and do loop back around to final dollars, but the tricky thing about it is that you can put a dollar amount on it.
However, that doesn't stop the networks from trying. Believe me, NBC has hired people to try and guess how much benefit they are getting out of FNL and 30 Rock in intangible benefits. It's a very real thing.
