Despite the fact that a lot of people think ER is on its last legs - the final season to date ratings say otherwise.

The show ranked 17th among adults 18-49 this season. It was the third highest rated NBC show this year in that category - losing only to Heroes and Sunday Night Football (making it the second highest rated 18-49 show on the network.

Any discussion of ending the show would be foolish with those solid 18-49 numbers.

It was relatively solid in the beginning, but that hiatus brought ER's ratings down to series lows.

...and I don't see it improving all that much.

Plus, it must be EXTREMELY expensive to make.

I agree. As long as ER is one of NBC's top shows, they simply cannot afford to lose it. As for ER being 'EXTREMELY' expensive, why? The cast has regular turnover so that they aren't faced with a 'Friends' style payscale. The cast turnover also keeps the show from getting stale, IMO. I think the problem is that too many viewers get bored with a storyline and quit watching, not realizing that the next season that storyline (and frequently those cast members) will be replaced with something new. This past season of ER, for all the dropoff in ratings, was still more interesting and more engaging that what Grey's Anatomy offers. In a couple of years, ER could change the entire cast over again and still be 'fresh'. Will Meredith Grey's voiceover and depressing pout ever be able to go away from Grey's Anatomy? Not likely. This basic evolving cast format is what has kept ER on the air for so long.

The numbers are a little skewed. The decent success of the fall and early winter masks the drop ER had in the spring. It is barely half the show (rating-wise) it was just this past fall. Take a look.

Numbers from Nov. 2006
Nov 2 - 14.29 million viewers (#20), 6.2 Demo

Nov. 9 - 14.47 million viewers (#20), 5.8 Demo

Nov 16 - 12.41 million (#27), 5.5 In the Demo

Numbers from Feb. 2007
Feb 1 - 11.79 million viewers (#20), 5.1 in the demo

Feb 8 - 11.53 million viewers (#26), 4.8 Demo

Feb 15 - 11.60 million viewers (#27), 4.8 Demo - #27 for the week

Feb 22 - 10 million viewers (#23), 4.0 in the demo

Last 4 ER episodes
April 26 - 9.39 million viewers (#30), 3.7 Demo

May 3 - 7.78 million viewers (#44), 3.2 in the demo

May 10 - 9.34 million viewers (#34), 3.8 Demo

May 17 - 9.51 million viewers (#30), 3.6 in the Demo

quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
Despite the fact that a lot of people think ER is on its last legs - the final season to date ratings say otherwise.

The show ranked 17th among adults 18-49 this season. It was the third highest rated NBC show this year in that category - losing only to Heroes and Sunday Night Football (making it the second highest rated 18-49 show on the network.

Any discussion of ending the show would be foolish with those solid 18-49 numbers.

I see no reason to have taken it off
the schedule.

What is interesting about those #'s
is that they reveal little drop during
the spring hiatus. While the ratings
for the 4/12 and 4/19 eps weren't
given, I see only about a 600K viewer
and .3 18-49 drop from 2/22 to 4/26.
The show was trending down all year
and its pattern is not too much
different from that of L&O SVU, though
SVU ended the final weeks slightly
above ER in all measures.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bruce,

quote:

As for ER being 'EXTREMELY' expensive, why? The cast has regular turnover so that they aren't faced with a 'Friends' style payscale.

1. It's not an NBC Universal show.

2. You have seven, or so, principal actors who I'm SURE don't come cheap.

3. If Law & Order costs a rumored $4 million/episode and Las Vegas costs about $3 million/episode, I can't imagine that ER is cheap.

4. You have a ton of crew, a ton of extras, a showrunner, writers, etc. that have been on ER for years and probably command higher salaries than people just starting out or are less seasoned (applied to crew).

I'm not saying ER should be canceled. I actually like the show, and for NBC, it's one of their most notable shows. But, when you start off a season with 14 million viewers and a 6.2 in the demo and end the season with 9.5 million and a 3.6 in the demo, a loss of 4.5 million and 2.6 in the demo, that's cause for concern. Plus, ER was #1 in its timeslot for years and now brand-new shows like October Road and Shark have been able to beat it with individual episodes. Now, Without a Trace is moving back into that slot and ER's dominance is sure to fade. ER still has that deadly Scrubs lead-in, and I don't see anything that's going to spark a sizable audience increase.

Therefore, I think ER should have one or two more seasons and then call it a wrap.

Way to point that out TV-aholic. I think NBC should air a final season with no repeats this fall and then try Lipstick Jungle in the timeslot in March. The loss of DOND as a lead in was a big factor as well.

quote:

Originally posted by TV-aholic:
The numbers are a little skewed. The decent success of the fall and early winter masks the drop ER had in the spring. It is barely half the show (rating-wise) it was just this past fall. Take a look.

Numbers from Nov. 2006
Nov 2 - 14.29 million viewers (#20), 6.2 Demo

Nov. 9 - 14.47 million viewers (#20), 5.8 Demo

Nov 16 - 12.41 million (#27), 5.5 In the Demo

Numbers from Feb. 2007
Feb 1 - 11.79 million viewers (#20), 5.1 in the demo

Feb 8 - 11.53 million viewers (#26), 4.8 Demo

Feb 15 - 11.60 million viewers (#27), 4.8 Demo - #27 for the week

Feb 22 - 10 million viewers (#23), 4.0 in the demo

Last 4 ER episodes
April 26 - 9.39 million viewers (#30), 3.7 Demo

May 3 - 7.78 million viewers (#44), 3.2 in the demo

May 10 - 9.34 million viewers (#34), 3.8 Demo

May 17 - 9.51 million viewers (#30), 3.6 in the Demo

quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
Despite the fact that a lot of people think ER is on its last legs - the final season to date ratings say otherwise.

The show ranked 17th among adults 18-49 this season. It was the third highest rated NBC show this year in that category - losing only to Heroes and Sunday Night Football (making it the second highest rated 18-49 show on the network.

Any discussion of ending the show would be foolish with those solid 18-49 numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by TAYLORJNG:

quote:

As for ER being 'EXTREMELY' expensive, why? The cast has regular turnover so that they aren't faced with a 'Friends' style payscale.

1. It's not an NBC Universal show.

So what? If NBC can afford to pay for Scrubs, they can certainly afford to pay for ER.

quote:

2. You have seven, or so, principal actors who I'm SURE don't come cheap.

Define 'cheap'. Are they cheaper than the average primetime drama, no? Are they substantially more expensive, no. In fact, one could argue that three of the main four characters this season all left the show on or before this season's finale. Only Maura Tirney remains and she has already said that next year will be her last. The cast turnover is a good way of keeping overall costs under control and bringing fresh plotlines to the show.

quote:

3. If Law & Order costs a rumored $4 million/episode and Las Vegas costs about $3 million/episode, I can't imagine that ER is cheap.

The cost per episode is not relevant in the context you just proposed. Instead, you need to look at the cost of the show vs. the money it brings in relative to other NBC shows like Las Vegas. In terms of money out/viewers gathered/money brought back in, I'd guess that ER is much cheaper than Las Vegas. After all, ER brings in about three times as much money per 30 second ad.

quote:

4. You have a ton of crew, a ton of extras, a showrunner, writers, etc. that have been on ER for years and probably command higher salaries than people just starting out or are less seasoned (applied to crew).

Without looking at the entire crew/writing staff/etc... of these shows there is no way to know that. It is illogical to assume that the crew/writers/etc... don't have turnover on existing shows or that 'new shows' hire a bunch of untrained rookies when they start out. In 'the real world', someone hired on fresh from the outside is almost always paid more than someone that has been with the company for years and moved up through the ranks.

[/QUOTE]I'm not saying ER should be canceled. I actually like the show, and for NBC, it's one of their most notable shows. But, when you start off a season with 14 million viewers and a 6.2 in the demo and end the season with 9.5 million and a 3.6 in the demo, a loss of 4.5 million and 2.6 in the demo, that's cause for concern. Plus, ER was #1 in its timeslot for years and now brand-new shows like October Road and Shark have been able to beat it with individual episodes. Now, Without a Trace is moving back into that slot and ER's dominance is sure to fade. ER still has that deadly Scrubs lead-in, and I don't see anything that's going to spark a sizable audience increase.

quote:

This is an argument to fire the guy in charge at NBC (done at one level last week) and an argument to get rid of Scrubs on Thursday night (might now happen before the fall season starts). It is not a good argument for getting rid of what is still one of NBC's top shows.

[QUOTE] Therefore, I think ER should have one or two more seasons and then call it a wrap.

Like any other show, renewal for 'next year' will depend on ratings for the 'current year'. Speculating out two+ season's in advance doesn't seem to have much point. One could just as easily look at Heroes, Desperate Housewives, or 2&1/2Men ratings and predict they 'cannot' last more than two more years.

ER will start next season with Stanley Tucci in a major role. Gone is Goran Visnjic. That upgrade alone is a spectacular move. The only truly fatal problem with ER is that the NBC 'braintrust' has no idea at all about what constitutes 'comedy that everyone can/will watch'. The NBC 'braintrust' has all but destroyed NBC's 'Must See TV' Thursday concept.

quote:

So what? If NBC can afford to pay for Scrubs, they can certainly afford to pay for ER.

If I had a dollar and wanted a cookie that cost 50 cents and a candy bar that cost 55 cents, I can afford one thing but not the other.

Being able to pay for one thing doesn't necessarily mean you can afford the other thing.

Besides, this is irrelevant. I know NBC can afford to pay for both shows, but is it in their best interest to keep paying for a show with declining ratings and quality (arguable) versus trying something new?

quote:

Define 'cheap'. Are they cheaper than the average primetime drama, no? Are they substantially more expensive, no. In fact, one could argue that three of the main four characters this season all left the show on or before this season's finale. Only Maura Tirney remains and she has already said that next year will be her last. The cast turnover is a good way of keeping overall costs under control and bringing fresh plotlines to the show.

The cast's salaries are probably cheaper than at ER's peak.

But NBC is in dire straights, and even if the cast's salaries are not "substantially" more expensive than the average primetime drama, they're still more expensive than reality or a new drama (depending on who's in the cast, crew on board, licensing fees, etc.).

quote:

The cost per episode is not relevant in the context you just proposed. Instead, you need to look at the cost of the show vs. the money it brings in relative to other NBC shows like Las Vegas. In terms of money out/viewers gathered/money brought back in, I'd guess that ER is much cheaper than Las Vegas. After all, ER brings in about three times as much money per 30 second ad.

...and that declines with declining ratings. I'm sure ER is profitable, but most likely, that profit is declining, the licensing fee isn't, and cast salaries haven't declined substantially enough to justify the other declines. Las Vegas has stayed relatively stable throughout its five seasons. Plus, it's episode order has been cut down to keep expenses low since it's an NBC Universal show. I doubt they would do that to ER. Warner Bros. TV would not be happy.

quote:

Without looking at the entire crew/writing staff/etc... of these shows there is no way to know that. It is illogical to assume that the crew/writers/etc... don't have turnover on existing shows or that 'new shows' hire a bunch of untrained rookies when they start out.

Just because a show has turnover doesn't mean salary increases are nonexistent. Looking up the crew listed on The Futon Critic's website, most of these people are still a part of the show and have been on for more than two years. Some have been there since its inception.

I'm not talking about untrained rookies, either. It could be people who have been in the business for quite awhile but hasn't written that one successful show to justify a high salary.

quote:

In 'the real world', someone hired on fresh from the outside is almost always paid more than someone that has been with the company for years and moved up through the ranks.

If it's a high-profile name, then maybe. If it's an unknown, I don't think so.

quote:

Like any other show, renewal for 'next year' will depend on ratings for the 'current year'. Speculating out two+ season's in advance doesn't seem to have much point. One could just as easily look at Heroes, Desperate Housewives, or 2&1/2Men ratings and predict they 'cannot' last more than two more years.

...and when do you think ER's fortunes will turn around and become a Top 20 show again. The show has been on a steep decline since the 2003 - 2004 season. It went from 19.5 million viewers (2003 - 2004) to 15.5 million viewers (2004 - 2005) to 12.3 million viewers (2005 - 2006) to 11.5 million viewers (2006 - 2007). Unless NBC gets smart and puts another show as it's lead-in, I think ER will average less than 11 million viewers this season.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TAYLORJNG,

quote:

Originally posted by TAYLORJNG:

quote:

So what? If NBC can afford to pay for Scrubs, they can certainly afford to pay for ER.

If I had a dollar and wanted a cookie that cost 50 cents and a candy bar that cost 55 cents, I can afford one thing but not the other.

Being able to pay for one thing doesn't necessarily mean you can afford the other thing.

Besides, this is irrelevant. I know NBC can afford to pay for both shows, but is it in their best interest to keep paying for a show with declining ratings and quality (arguable) versus trying something new?

Again, think about what you are saying. You acknowledge that NBC can afford one or the other (Scrubs vs. ER), but you think it is logical to call for ER's end rather than Scrubs'? The bottom line of this entire conversation is that NBC has to keep show that make the most money. It is absurd to put ER at/near the top of the list of shows to cancel when ER is one of the highest rated shows on the network.

quote:

Just because a show has turnover doesn't mean salary increases are nonexistent. Looking up the crew listed on The Futon Critic's website, most of these people are still a part of the show and have been on for more than two years. Some have been there since its inception.

Do you believe that a new drama on NBC would hire a bunch of crew/staff right out of school with no experience? I don't think you can make the claim that a 1st year show automatically has an entire crew of lower salaried workers compared with an existing show. People are paid 'the going rate'. When unions get envolved, it is even more likely that you cannot start a new show with 'cheap labor'. The salary for 'lighting guy' does not increase in the same manner over the course of a show as the salary for the onscreen talent.

quote:

...and when do you think ER's fortunes will turn around and become a Top 20 show again.

For the all imprtant 18-49 demo, ER is STILL a top20 show. In total viewers, ER would have to gain quite a bit, which is not likely. Your question is not relevant, though. If NBC should cancel anything that isn't a top 20 show, they might as well go off the air since the only top20 show they had in viewers was NFL football. What NBC needs to do is get rid of failed shows and try to replace them with something better. One can only hope that, since they clearly failed to do that for this fall season (renewing losers like 30 Rock, Scrubs, and Friday Night Lights), that heads will continue to roll. NBC needs to get rid of their bottom shows, not their top shows.

quote:

Unless NBC gets smart and puts another show as it's lead-in, I think ER will average less than 11 million viewers this season.

Hey, glad to see you finally agree with what I said all along.

quote:

Again, think about what you are saying. You acknowledge that NBC can afford one or the other (Scrubs vs. ER), but you think it is logical to call for ER's end rather than Scrubs'? The bottom line of this entire conversation is that NBC has to keep show that make the most money. It is absurd to put ER at/near the top of the list of shows to cancel when ER is one of the highest rated shows on the network.

I said that NBC could afford BOTH shows, so it doesn't matter if NBC can afford to pay for either, because they can afford both together.

You said that since they can afford Scrubs, they can afford ER, and I gave you a hypothetical situation where someone could afford to pay for either thing, but not both together.

I absolutely agree that if NBC is faced with the choice to cancel Scrubs or ER, they should cancel the overrated Scrubs.

I also never said that NBC should cancel ER now. But, if and when, they're in a situation where they are able to try something else, they should try something. ER has had a long, illustrious run with ups and downs. All of its original cast is gone. The show is on its last legs. That was even said by NBC itself. Unless, there is a revival in ratings this season or the next, I think we'll be seeing the end of ER soon.

My first post talked about why that "ending the show" talk was happening not a call to cancel the show.

quote:

Do you believe that a new drama on NBC would hire a bunch of crew/staff right out of school with no experience? I don't think you can make the claim that a 1st year show automatically has an entire crew of lower salaried workers compared with an existing show. People are paid 'the going rate'. When unions get envolved, it is even more likely that you cannot start a new show with 'cheap labor'. The salary for 'lighting guy' does not increase in the same manner over the course of a show as the salary for the onscreen talent.

Of course, I don't believe that. But, I also believe that you CAN find crew that are starting out that are putting their first works out there. Prison Break, Dawson's Creek, The O.C. and countless other shows were created by people who created their first works, got them on the air, and were integral in the success of their networks during their respective times. These people don't necessarily come straight out of school. You can also find plenty of talented writers that might pursue other fields and then come back to write for their first shows.

But, seasoned crew for season shows or non-seasoned crew who get hit after hit after hit on air tend to be higher paid then people just starting out. That's a fact.

...and I'm not talking about the lighting guy.

quote:

For the all imprtant 18-49 demo, ER is STILL a top20 show. In total viewers, ER would have to gain quite a bit, which is not likely. Your question is not relevant, though. If NBC should cancel anything that isn't a top 20 show, they might as well go off the air since the only top20 show they had in viewers was NFL football. What NBC needs to do is get rid of failed shows and try to replace them with something better. One can only hope that, since they clearly failed to do that for this fall season (renewing losers like 30 Rock, Scrubs, and Friday Night Lights), that heads will continue to roll. NBC needs to get rid of their bottom shows, not their top shows.

You're right ER is still a Top 20 show among adults 18-49. But, I will bet you that that is going to change this season. The last few episodes, with Scrubs as a lead-in, averaged a 3.6 in the demo. Even if I didn't factor in the episode when it was up against Grey's Anatomy/Private Practice, it still averaged a 3.7 in the demo. A 3.6-3.7 in the demo puts it at about #40 in adults 18-49.

With Without a Trace going back to its rightful Thursday @ 10 post and the potential success of Big Shots (although I highly doubt it), ER will further fall down the chart this season.

In regards to the renewing of "losers," I do agree with you for the most part except that I think about how The Office did terribly in its first season, grew precipitously in its 2nd, and continues to grow in its 3rd. Now, it's a Top 30 show among adults 18-40 and NBC's #5 show among adults 18-49. Could 30 Rock follow a similar path? That remains to be seen.

Scrubs should've been cancelled. Plain and simple.

FNL could succeed with lower expectation on Friday night and a solid lead-in. Will it ever be huge? No. Could it be solid? Sure.

...and I think being solid, across the board, is what NBC needs right now vs. trying to find the next big hit every single season.

I used to love ER. There used to be a great dynamic between its characters thats has been slowly diminishing. I've seriously considered to stop watching ER, as I've realized that it isn't hot as it once was. I used to be into the love triangles and everything else on the show but now it seems like its a waste of my time.

If NBC were smart, I would air the show in a condensed basis. I'd like to see a season finale before clocks switch back to Daylight Savings Time in mid-March. It would be perfect if ER could air about 12 episodes before Christmas and about 10-12 after Christmas but before we return to DST.

I have been a HUGE fan of ER since it's inception, and considering how long it's been on, its still a (mostly)good show, with decent ratings. I don't think that the newer crop of actors is as strong as some of the 'old guard." Linda Cardellini, (who's not new anymore, actually) is particularly one-note and whiny, despite trying desperately to give her lots of melodramatic storylines (being taken hostage, then killing her no-good-ex-husband, putting her firebug troubled delinquent son in 'rehab' etc..) she is just f-l-a-t.
However, I think that (creator/ep)John Wells' deal with the network is only through spring 2008, so it will be difficult to extend the show past that. I am happy to have it continue, but IF they're going to end it, I'd rather that there be a PLANNED ending, unlike some recent examples of good dramas being cancelled without wrapups (CROSSING JORDAN, JUDGING AMY) Maybe they can come up with a storyline that would lead to a BIG CHILL -type reunion with the original cast members, some of whom don't seem to busy lately...Noah Wylie, Anthony Edwards, Eric LaSalle,Sherry Stringfield.. How bout it?!!(Clooney being the one BIG exception, of course, and Julianna M. has got a new show on FOX next spring!)
But I guess it's all up to Ben,now, hm?!

Fine discussion, many good points
established. The bottom line for me
is that ER is among the least of NBC's
problems.

The real issue for the show, and I
believe this was alluded to indirectly
in an earlier post about LIPSTICK
JUNGLE, is how do you hand this still
advertiser-desirable audience off to
another show before the aud dissipates
too badly?

Note how CBS walked NCIS right into
JAG's slot. Would NCIS have been a
winner elsewhere on sked? Net took
that question out of the equation.
Would the slot have been as lucrative
if they had waited another year?
Not likely. And while this is quite
obviously an extreme example, it does
put the issue of how a network manages
its audience into sharp focus.

These are the strategic issues that
NBC has utterly failed at in recent
years.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bruce,

I am a huge fan of ER; when it comes to storylines/writing, the show has amazingly improved in the last two seasons, then during seasons 9, 10, and 11. But as much as I love the series, I do feel that the series should end next season. The 10th episode of its 14th season will be episode 300 and I think NBC should just advertise the hell out of the series being in its final season. I think that could definitely bring viewers back.

They could also try bringing back Noah Wyle; they had a contract with him to appear in 8 episodes between season 12 and 13, but he didnt appear in any during this season (leaving him at least 4 episodes to appear in) and I think the series would improve with him returning for a final season, especially with Goran Visjnic appearing next season as only in guest roles.

NBC should also advertise Scrubs as its final season next year, but I dont think that will help the series too much. I really only think it returned because NBC's development season was crappy when it comes to comedies and that they didnt want ABC to get it.